Take School Choice to the Voters. Referendum

« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2005, 11:42:02 PM »

SchoolTeacher Offline

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Watch the dispatch for this letter to the editor:

AP misleads public with School Voucher statistics.

There is an old saying that “if you have to manipulate the data to defend your position, your position is wrong.” In the Dispatch Article titled New study of vouchers gives them lower marks Sunday, November 20, 2005 the AP states that “Children in the Cleveland school-voucher program fared no better than their public-school peers, and in some cases were performing below public-school levels, according to a new study.” This statement used to support the negative toned title demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the issue. Voucher students doing as well as their average Public School Peer is a huge success. Vouchers are only given to students that are trapped in failing Public Schools, where the average outcome is well below average. The more appropriate study would be to see how Voucher Children compare to the children that remained in the Public Schools vacated by the voucher children. That would be an apples to apples comparison. It should be no surprise to find that Voucher Children are only average when compared to Children that on average attend far better schools than those vacated by the Voucher Children. If Inner-City Schools produced average results there would be no need for vouchers.


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Take School Choice to the Voters. Referendum

« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2005, 11:02:25 PM »

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Take School Choice to the Voters. Referendum

« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2005, 09:34:20 PM »

SchoolTeacher Offline

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State officials ordered schools participating in Milwaukee's voucher program to stop enrolling new students through the choice program because it appears to have hit the state-imposed enrollment cap of

http://schoolchoiceinfo.org/


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Take School Choice to the Voters. Referendum

« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2005, 09:37:01 PM »

SchoolTeacher Offline

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Does anyone know the process of getting an issue like School Choice on a ballot?
How many signatures? How to get it written? How to get it sponsored? Funding? Would CTH get behind such an initiative?


« Last Edit: November 30, 2005, 09:38:11 PM by AdamSmith »	Logged

Take School Choice to the Voters. Referendum

« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2005, 11:45:33 AM »

Peter

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I think we need more information. Lately, I've been seeing others praise Ohio as an example of School choice. But what districts? What exactly is going on in Ohio with school choice?


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Take School Choice to the Voters. Referendum

« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2005, 12:34:09 PM »

G3Buckeye

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A few thoughts....it would be VERY expensive to launch a petition drive and get enough signatures to get the issue on the ballot. In addition to the petition drive expenses, you would need to invest in print and broadcast media advertising, speaker series, debates, etc. Not saying we could not do it, just saying that it would take a lot of money and a few dedicated individuals who could commit full-time to managing the details. We are certainly not set up to do anything like that now.

I think the Buckeye Institute has done/is doing research on school choice.

I'm attaching a WSJ article regarding school choice in Texas.


« Last Edit: December 01, 2005, 12:34:54 PM by G3Buckeye »	Logged

“To do what ought to be done but what would not have been done unless I did it, I thought to be my duty.” -- Robert Morrison

Take School Choice to the Voters. Referendum

« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2005, 06:29:25 PM »

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You might be underestimating the complexity of the proposal. What does "School Choice" mean to you, exactly? Does it allow any parent to enroll their child in any school in the state without limits? Would you define a voucher amount and simply hand that to parents for every kid? How would you calculate the voucher amount? Would you give the same amount to special needs kids? Gifted kids? Would you have a phase-in? How many years? What about transportation? Should parents have to arrange for transportation to an alternative school? How would you prioritize who gets into the most requested schools? How about standards? Would you require all schools to adhere to public school standards (which can be both good and bad). Would they need to comply with state and federal mandates, the multitide of which most people can't even begin to imagine without weeks of research? Would you still require the 'home' district to perform the services it performs now (such as identification of learning disabilities by age 3) and, if so, would you require parents to pay for this, and finally, would you put all of these details in the ballot language or would you leave the details up to the general assembly?

My point is that a constitutional amendment that says that anyone can send their kid anywhere they want, in and of itself, is bad public policy and wouldn't pass.

Here is a suggestion. Begin by listing the problems with the current system that you are trying to solve (e.g. failing schools, to expensive, topheavy, poor results). Once you do that, we can identify the root cause of each issue and address those, one by one.

Finally, take a look at the No Child Left Behind legislation. It probably already does some of what you want.


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Take School Choice to the Voters. Referendum

« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2005, 06:51:06 PM »

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Not saying we could not do it, just saying that it would take a lot of money and a few dedicated individuals who could commit full-time to managing the details.

This could be accomplished by networking with some of the Anti-Levy groups statewide in regards to a manpower issue. There is a good chance as well that utilizing these same groups as a fund raising vehicle would help as well.

Finally, take a look at the No Child Left Behind legislation.

Would this be something we would work on at a monthly meeting or would we devote time soley to this issue to have our ducks in a proverbal row?

You might be underestimating the complexity of the proposal. What does "School Choice" mean to you, exactly?

Marc does raise some good points that we all should begin to have our own answers to draw a common ground on what we want to accomplish.


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I don't need John Kerry or big brother to wipe my ass, don't need Ted Kennedy to spill my glass, Al Not So Sharpton is a racist lying horses ass, Redistribution is a fkn laugh, the whole damn world can kiss my a**.

I don't need nobody to hold my hand, don't need nobody, I can stand. Make it on my own in a Rock-n-Roll band, kiss my ass cuz I'm a American.

Ya say you're friends with Michael Moore. Then you are friends with pimps & whores, The 2nd Amendment aint about no sport, no ri

Take School Choice to the Voters. Referendum

« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2005, 11:00:55 PM »

SchoolTeacher Offline

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Quote

A few thoughts....it would be VERY expensive to launch a petition drive and get enough signatures to get the issue on the ballot.

I was thinking of contacting WHite Hat Management to see if thry would be interested. Afterall, they stand to benefit greatly if school choice is expanded.

Marc, many of your questions are answered in the original post of the initiative.

Also, I encourage everyone to forward this thread on to your representitive. The e-mails are posted earlier in this thread.


« Last Edit: December 01, 2005, 11:02:16 PM by AdamSmith »	Logged

Take School Choice to the Voters. Referendum

« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2005, 11:48:15 AM »

MarcSchare Offline

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AdamSmith:

There are, according to the latest census, 2,461,025 school age kids in the state of Ohio.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTab...eo_id=04000US39

A voucher of $10,000 for each of them would cost the state $24,610,250,000. Sadly, the entire general revenue fund for the state is only around $21,000,000,000, so if the state is to fund your amendment, we would require massive tax increases or to cut 100% of everything else. Please note that this figure would include zero services for ages 0-5, a policy that flys in the face of your 'leave no child behind' sentence since many special education funds are diverted to this age group. Of course, the census figure includes age 19, so perhaps it would balance out.

Now, you can argue that we should simply divert local property taxes to pay for your amendment. Fine. According to the Coalitition for Equity and Adequacy in School Funding, local property taxes contribute around 2.2 Billion dollars to public education in the state. The state is currently paying around 8 Billion dollars. Just to be charitable, I'm going to double the local property share because I've heard estimates from other groups that 4 Billion is a better number. This means that around $12 Billion dollars are spent on public education in the state, or around half of what you need, not including your nebulous, unspecified Special-Ed paragraph.

Let's look at your requirement for a CPI increase. Among the other things your amendment would do is break the tie between local schools and local property values. Like it or not, my house here in Worthington is worth what it is worth in part because we have an excellent school district here. If, all of a sudden, anyone could participate in our excellent school district, no one in Worthington is going to continue paying our outrageous property taxes, and this statement would be true for any high-wealth district in the state. Not only would levys never pass, they would be repealed, thus bringing you further from your goal of $24 Billion dollars.

I'll ask again, and remember that I love playing devil's advocate: What problem, specifically, are you trying to solve?


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« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2005, 12:46:13 PM »

G3Buckeye

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White Hat Management MIGHT support an initiative brought forth by a 501c3 so that the contribution is tax deductible. It's doubtful that Brennan would consider supporting an organization that has no experience, no tax exemption status, and no infrastructure to efficiently set and/or achieve goals.

AdamSmith - here's a shot of reality. Again, not saying it's not a worthy cause, but I worked on Gov. Bush's task force in Florida and on Ohio initiatives with White Hat. I'm telling you...it's expensive both in human and capital resources. We don't know the right people. We don't know a lot of things...mainly we don't know what we don't know.

And to Marc's point...the goal would be to increase competition in the schools in an effort to improve academic achievement. I'm hoping it's not a fiscally based goal anyway...


« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 12:47:28 PM by G3Buckeye »	Logged

“To do what ought to be done but what would not have been done unless I did it, I thought to be my duty.” -- Robert Morrison

Take School Choice to the Voters. Referendum

« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2005, 12:55:00 PM »

G3Buckeye

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I didn't finish my thought...

Here's the bottom line:

I think it would be more efficient and productive for CTH members to volunteer to help organizations that are already working on these issues than to try and launch our own inititiaves. Whether it's fiscal policy, school choice, health care, whatever...there's lots going on that we can get involved in.


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“To do what ought to be done but what would not have been done unless I did it, I thought to be my duty.” -- Robert Morrison

Take School Choice to the Voters. Referendum

« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2005, 12:55:44 PM »

Peter

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Quote

A voucher of $10,000 for each of them would cost the state $24,610,250,000. [...] around $12 Billion dollars are spent on public education in the state, or around half of what you need

Marc, I realilze that I don't fully understand this issue, but I need some clarification for some things that you're saying.

Why would we need $10,000 for each child? As you've made clear, that's much more than is being spent now. Also, wouldn't increased competition cause market forces to bring the total cost down even further?

And I agree with G3. But we may be getting ahead of ourselves. This is one of a number of great ideas we can help with.


« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 12:58:12 PM by Peter »	Logged

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Take School Choice to the Voters. Referendum

« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2005, 01:00:27 PM »

G3Buckeye

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FYI

Articles on Spending vs. Achievement

From the Heartland Institute's

Policy Bot.


« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 01:00:59 PM by G3Buckeye »	Logged

“To do what ought to be done but what would not have been done unless I did it, I thought to be my duty.” -- Robert Morrison

Take School Choice to the Voters. Referendum

« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2005, 01:38:20 PM »

MarcSchare Offline

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Peter:

AdamSmith's original ballot language called for the figure of $10K/student. I merely used her number. I don't believe the figure would need to be that high..


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