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EducateWorthington.org

The 912 Project - Glenn Beck

912 Group of Central Ohio

Please let me know if you'd like your link added

This is the worst defense of a National Healthcare System I have heard. A frequent caller applies a smackdown a bit past the half way mark. It is worth a listen:

mms://streaming1.osu.edu/wosu/openline/102406aOL.wma

rtsp://streaming1.osu.edu/wosu/openline/102406aOL.rm

[We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money. --Ronald ReaganAl Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warmingThe welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - CamusThe person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect. --Hayek]

Critically ill patients rushed to U.S. for care

LISA PRIEST

More than 150 critically ill Canadians – many with life-threatening cerebral hemorrhages – have been rushed to the United States since the spring of 2006 because they could not obtain intensive-care beds here.

Before patients with bleeding in or outside the brain have been whisked through U.S. operating-room doors, some have languished for as long as eight hours in Canadian emergency wards while health-care workers scrambled to locate care.

The waits, in some instances, have had devastating consequences.

“There have been very serious health-care problems that have arisen in neurosurgical patients because of the lack of ability to attain timely transport to expert neurosurgical centres in Ontario,” said R. Loch Macdonald, chief of the division of neurosurgery at St. Michael's Hospital in Toronto. Those problems, he said, include “brain injury or brain damage that could have been prevented by earlier treatment.”

Ontario has the worst problem, though it is not alone.

British Columbia has sent four patients with spine injuries to Washington State hospitals for care from May to September, 2007, though the recruitment of more staff and opening of new beds have helped alleviate the problem.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...eandHealth/home

The events described can be considered a "market decision".  If you wish to limit expenditures, you build an infrastructure geared to the "usual" load, then when/if there is need for more, you "outsource"  This is what the Canadians have been doing for a long time.  For most of the Canadian population that lives close to the US border, with good transportation links this is the "economical" way of doing things.  This is not a "socialized medicine" problem it is a "market/tax" decision.

 It may not be the "preferred" outcome for ill patients but just think of the 45M Americans without health insurance.  Their plight is much greater than that of the few Canadians that have to be transported.

The Shadow knows :ph34r:  

[We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money. --Ronald ReaganAl Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warmingThe welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - CamusThe person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect. --Hayek]

Ahh...the free-market expert speaks/writes....the one who has no idea what a free-market is.  He is content with his answer for everything, as long as HE does not reside in Canada and as long as HE does not have a cerebral hemorrhage.

Yet another amusing example of over-indulged pedantry.  Classic.

Although The Shadow does not reside in Canada, a father, mother and sister died there and a sister, two brothers in law and 2 nephews are there.  So The Shadow knows what their experience is, what the medical care really is like as well as what difficulties (because they do exist) are encountered.

The services afforded to Canadians is limited by their willingness to pay taxes (cost) thus even thought he government administers the program the decision ultimately is a market decision.  As a society the Canadians are free to get more or less depending on their willingness to pay.  As individuals if they have the ability to pay they can avail themselves of the high priced US health system.  In cases as described the Canadian system will pay for them to come to the US.

(adapted from Wikipedia) A pedant is a person who makes a show of learning. (Added by the Shadow) "in contrast to relying on slogans and prejudice"

The Shadow knows :ph34r:  

[We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money. --Ronald ReaganAl Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warmingThe welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - CamusThe person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect. --Hayek]

And it just eats at him not to have the last word, for his educated word must be final.  For we are uneducated rubes...and he must be right... for all of the world to see.  

Even though most us understand the very simple concept that a nationalized health care system cannot make or impose "market" solutions by farming out the failures to another country.  Perhaps he needs more education.

And as far as the 45M without healthcare; most own homes, most own cars, most have a standard of living as good or better than the "average" European.  So, why pay for healthcare when a) you don't need it and/or b.) the ER or clinic down the street is "free." (meaning that you and I pay for it).

And I am guilty of the same thing that I accused westcoast of doing.  I must stop.

a nationalized health care system cannot make or impose "market" solutions by farming out the failures to another country.

The nationalized system neither makes nor imposes market solutions.   It uses them.

The example used is a "failure" only in the context of not providing a service that some people need and where a less expensive solution is available by outsourcing. And where Canadians are unwilling to collectively pay for the infrastructure both technical and in personnel which would be required.  

It may not be the "desirable" solution for the one who needs the service but it may well be the preferred solution for those who pay.

Is outsourcing to China to obtain cheaper products not a market decision? If it is why is outsourcing health care to reduce expenditures not the same thing.  If it is not what is it?

And I am guilty of the same thing that I accused westcoast of doing. I must stop.

?

The Shadow would like to know :ph34r:

[We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money. --Ronald ReaganAl Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warmingThe welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - CamusThe person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect. --Hayek]

Still not content with not having the last word or with his misunderstanding of free-markets, he has to clarify.  

Hmmm....  perhaps I feel the compulsion to have the last word...just to see how far this will go.  Is it a sickness?  Good thing I am not in Canada.

Tony

question: how can you tell what I am writing before I post it?  You are not even shown as signed on unless you are the anonymous.

The Shadow would like to know
 

[FOR THE LOVE OF GOD]

Perhaps I need to type this more slowly....

If a government decides to do something...say create a nationalized, mandated health care system...IT IS NO LONGER A FREE MARKET.  

PLEASE, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DO NOT USE THE WORD "MARKET" WHEN TALKING ABOUT A GOVERNMENT SYSTEM.  IT MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE VERY BASICS (which we all know you do not...).

I AM TRYING TO HELP YOU NOT LOOK LIKE A FOOL...BUT FOR SOME REASON YOU KEEP PRESSING ON AND ON.

Now, a government can play a role. For example, they can enforce rules such as patent infringements or other violations.

BUT IT IS A FAILURE, NOT A MARKET DECISION, WHEN A GOVERNMENT IMPOSED HEALTH CARE SYSTEM CANNOT TAKE CARE OF ITS CITIZENS AND MUST FARM THEIR CITIZENS OUT TO ANOTHER COUNTRY.

OK. so now I understand the problem.  As I see it,  in a free society (as opposed to a dictatorship) whatever the government does it does with the consent of a majority of the people who are then are called upon to pay for what they want. Their wants are then limited by their willingness to pay.

As you see it, a free market is the product of individual decisions.  In the case of health care I happen to look at the collective society as a single individual. The "government" also acts (or should act) as a single individual in the discharge of its responsibilities.  If the people do not give the government the resources to take care of all its citizens it is not a failure of the government (assuming no incompetency nor corruption) but rather that society's decision of who will do without.

The Shadow views the health care question as a mixed market question where the  market is free at the base, but with government oversight and administration, with restrictions in supply which can only be accommodated by increases in cost or by doing without.

Two tiered systems as they exist (with governmental agreement) in some European countries are a reflection of those options.

The Shadow now understands the differences in terminology and points of view. :ph34r:  

[We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money. --Ronald ReaganAl Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warmingThe welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - CamusThe person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect. --Hayek]

Do you really want to keep pressing this?   I realize you have nothing better to do...so I guess this is a test of patience vs. ignorance.

with government oversight and administration

MEANS IT IS NO LONGER A MARKET SYSTEM.  PERIOD.

And just think about the irrationality of this statement:

In the case of health care I happen to look at the collective society as a single individual.

Some would call it a mixed market.   Let us leave it at that.

The Shadow

[We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money. --Ronald ReaganAl Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warmingThe welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - CamusThe person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect. --Hayek]

A mixed market is not a free market.

I am not sure, even after 2.5 years, that you realize the difference between free markets and government....

Perhaps you will gain more insight as you read this website (and post more non sequiturs).

But I doubt it.

Internal Memos Detail Creation of Government “Interest Group Database” to Collect Personal Data on Health Care Debate Activists

(Washington, DC)

Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption, today released records obtained from the Clinton Presidential Library related to the National Taskforce on Health Care Reform, a “cabinet-level” task force chaired by former First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton during the Clinton administration.  Specifically, these documents come from the White House Health Care Interdepartmental Working Group.

Among the highlights of the documents released by Judicial Watch:

• A June 18, 1993 internal Memorandum  entitled, “A Critique of Our Plan,” authored by someone with the initials “P.S.,” makes the startling admission that critics of Hillary’s health care reform plan were correct:  “I can think of parallels in wartime, but I have trouble coming up with a precedent in our peacetime history for such broad and centralized control over a sector of the economy…Is the public really ready for this?... none of us knows whether we can make it work well or at all…”

• A “Confidential” May 26, 1993 Memorandum  from Senator Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) to Hillary Clinton entitled, “Health Care Reform Communications,” which criticizes the Task Force as a “secret cabal of Washington policy ‘wonks’” that has engaged in “choking off information” from the public regarding health care reform.  The memorandum suggests that Hillary Clinton “use classic opposition research” to attack those who were excluded by the Clinton Administration from Task Force deliberations and to “expose lifestyles, tactics and motives of lobbyists” in order to deflect criticism.  Senator Rockefeller also suggested news organizations “are anxious and willing to receive guidance [from the Clinton Administration] on how to time and shape their [news] coverage.”

• A February 5, 1993 Draft Memorandum  from Alexis Herman and Mike Lux detailing the Office of Public Liaison’s plan for the health care reform campaign.  The memorandum notes the development of an “interest group data base” detailing whether or not organizations “support(ed) us in the election.”  The database would also track personal information about interest group leaders, such as their home phone numbers, addresses, “biographies, analysis of credibility in the media, and known relationships with Congresspeople.”

These records released by Judicial Watch were obtained from the approximately 13,000 records made publicly available by the Clinton Library.  The National Archives admits there may be an additional 3,022,030 textual records, 2,884 pages of electronic records, 1,021 photographs, 3 videotapes and 3 audiotapes related to the Task Force that are being withheld indefinitely from the public.  On November 2, 2007 Judicial Watch filed a lawsuit with the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia against the National Archives to force the release of all the Task Force records.

“These documents paint a disturbing picture of how Hillary Clinton and the Clinton administration approached health care reform – secrecy, smears, and the misuse of government computers to track private and political information on citizens,” said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton.  “There are millions more documents that the Library has yet to release.  The Clintons continue to play games and pretend they have nothing to do with this delay.  The Clintons should get out of the way and authorize the release of these records now.”