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EducateWorthington.org

The 912 Project - Glenn Beck

912 Group of Central Ohio

Please let me know if you'd like your link added

[We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money. --Ronald ReaganAl Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warmingThe welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - CamusThe person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect. --Hayek]

Doubts over 'green' solar panels

DANIEL PARKER

SOLAR panels fitted to homes may be harming the environment more than convenional sources of energy, according to a study by scientists.

More energy is used to build, run, and recycle solar panels compared with that for fossil fuel systems, according to researchers.

The findings indicate that although large scale solar panel systems are beneficial, the environmental advantages of smaller scale systems such as the ones which can be fitted to ordinary homes are slim or non-existant.

The research was carried out by a team in Greece which looked at the reasons why renewable energy technology has not yet reached a high enough standard to compete with fossil fuel systems.

They conclude a vast amount of energy is consumed during the manufacturing process of solar panels. The equipment, made from a variety of materials including aluminium, glass, Tedlar and EVA (a sealant product) and the waste products from such processes are damaging the environment. Glass and aluminium consume a lot of energy on production lines.

In contrast, the report says wind and geothermal energy are the most environmentally friendly.

But it says renewable energy sources involve significantly less dangerous pollutants, and silicon - one of the main raw materials in solar panels - is available in abundance compared to fossil fuels.

Owen Davis, spokesman for Friends Of The Earth Scotland said: "There have always been concerns about the manufacturing of solar panels but if you compare, say over 25 years, the amount of pollution and energy used by a solar panel is minute compared to a fossil fuels."

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1279972007

Here we go..The "solar panel skeptic".  Solar panels are bad for the coal, the oil, the natural gas and somewhat for the electric industries.  The shadow wonders who is fighting this.

The Shadow inquires :ph34r:  

[We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money. --Ronald ReaganAl Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warmingThe welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - CamusThe person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect. --Hayek]

Knowledge and information are terrible, ugly things when it doesn't fit The Agenda of the Minister of Truth.

'Bannish ALL!  ...If I declare it tarred by the nefarious and omnipresent COAL Industry!" so sayeth his Highness.

[We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money. --Ronald ReaganAl Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warmingThe welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - CamusThe person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect. --Hayek]

Once again...another case of facts getting in the way of The Agenda:

Solar Energy Not a Cost Saving Option For Schools

To The Editor (Worthington News):

Before we spend too much time and money examining photovoltaics, or PV, for powering our schools, and with all due respect to those who would like to consider it further, the economics of PV systems are already well-defined.
In its 2007 report, for example, U.S. Department of Energy’s Solar Advisor Model estimates the 2007-2011 cost for commercial-scale PV power in Phoenix at 15 to 22 cents per kilowatt-hour (levelized over project life).  For the cloudier climes of Central Ohio, comparable costs would be 25 to 40 cents per kilowatt-hour.  By contrast, Central Ohio power is made for less than 4 cents per kilowatt-hour, and is delivered to my house for about 8 cents.
Very possibly, there are federal or state subsidies available to shift some cost to other tax pockets (still, we pay taxes for those pockets as well).  Solar energy for electricity is not a cost-savings option with current technologies.
If the goal is for schools to use renewable power, renewable credits can be purchased – the current price is under 2 cents per kilowatt-hour, quite a bit cheaper than the incremental cost of solar power.  Just a little tongue in cheek – how much power would we save if night sports were moved to Saturday mornings?  For those who are interested, the Solar Advisor Model is available for free from the Department of Energy.

Ted Thomas

      Once again...another case of facts getting in the way of The Agenda

Not so, another case of incomplete analysis to fit a predetermined conclusion.

The Shadow knows :ph34r:  

[We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money. --Ronald ReaganAl Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warmingThe welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - CamusThe person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect. --Hayek]

I am looking forward to the 6,000 word counter meta-analysis.  I'm sure it will be.........electrifying.

[apparently stuck in the mindset]

Apparently it was less than electrifying:

Further study of solar power would be a waste of resources

My Sept. 12 letter about solar enegy was noted in a recent response in this forum.  My basic point was and is that the best technology and science available today does not make economic electricity in our climate.  The problem is that the extensive capital cost of solar equipment has to be paid for by cost recovery  from the relatively limited quantities of electricity produced in our less-than-sunny environment.
The responder agreed with the analyses and the conclusion that solar energy in Ohio is now quite expensive.  But, apparently stuck in the mindset that somehow solar electricity has to be economic today, he wants yet further study.
As I remember, a call for study has been a constant theme.  Faced with an earlier letter writer's position and information that small-scale systems are not economic, he wanted a study at larger scale.
That study, fortunately, has been recently and well-done and was provided in the Sept. 12 letter.  Since it spectacularly failed to support his beliefs, he now wants building-specific studies.
Scarce public monies need to be spent where outcomes are likely to be favorable.  In addition to the existing and unfavorable studies, the absence of profitably operated grid systems (public or private) in Ohio is an additional signal that further study of today's solar power technologies applied to Worthington schools would be  waste of resources.

Ted Thomas

Well...what can I say, other than...how can someone be so wrong, so many times, for so long and still go on thinking that he is an expert on everything?  What causes the need to make a continual display of ignorance, time after time, even after being proven wrong?  There should be a name for this psycholgical disorder.  If there isn't, I will coin one: Pedantic Pretentiousness Disorder or PPD.

[We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money. --Ronald ReaganAl Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warmingThe welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - CamusThe person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect. --Hayek]

Sunny side down

Feb 15th 2008
From Economist.com

Going solar is a luxury few can afford

IT’S not easy being green—nor is it cheap. With the best will (and some of the most generous handouts) in the world, solar power still makes little sense for the average homeowner, even in sunny southern California. Under pressure from his environmentally conscious ten-year-old daughter, your correspondent has spent the past week talking to experts around the state and running the numbers to see if he could reduce Mayhem Manor’s carbon footprint.

Solar power ought to be the answer. The house faces south-east, lacks trees or other shadow-casting obstructions, and its flat roof offers ample space for a sizable solar array. At 720 feet up the hillside, it is well above the “marine layer” (the locals’ fancy name for morning fog) and gets about 300 sunny days a year. So what’s the problem?

It’s not even as though the place gobbles electricity. When the house was being rebuilt five years ago, the new roof came with over a foot of thermal insulation. The floor-to-ceiling windows along two sides of the structure were replaced with double-glazed “low-E” glass (the sort that blocks infra-red radiation), and thermal linings were included in all the exterior walls. Even during the summer, the air conditioner usually stays off.

Admittedly, the architect went overboard on lighting. Fully illuminated, the house demanded seven kilowatts of raw lighting-power before fluorescent lights replaced thirsty tungsten filaments. Overall electricity consumption is now a reasonable 8,300 kilowatt-hours (kWh) a year.

Given the local utility’s rate of 10.8 cents per kWh, that adds up to a modest $900 for the year—or just $2.50 a day. At those prices, solar energy simply cannot compete with juice from the local power-station, even with California-level subsidies.

http://www.economist.com/daily/columns/tec...ory_id=10709096

If it is so bad how come there are companies willing to own solar arrays not only in California but also in NJ?  They must not be aware of all that TB knows!! But they make money.

http://www.sunedison.com/

http://www.borregosolar.com/government/how...power-works.php

The Shadow knows :ph34r:  

[We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money. --Ronald ReaganAl Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warmingThe welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - CamusThe person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect. --Hayek]

Just can't accept the reality of the situtation, can you?  Even from a left of center publication like the Economist...

You are really missing the point.  The Economist speaks about a residence with limited consumption. Under those conditions that is probably true.

The sites given address business and govt. entities with large roofs and significant consumption.  Anyway, those companies make money, recoup their investments and have profits  beyond the government tax subsidies with energy sales.  In fact one of them is prepared to come into Ohio if legislation is passed that will make the regulatory environment predictable and thus the endeavor commercially feasible.  In view of your superior knowledge we must conclude that those corporations must be delusional.  

The Shadow knows :ph34r:  

[We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money. --Ronald ReaganAl Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warmingThe welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - CamusThe person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect. --Hayek]

Um...the numbers don't change if you install it on a home or on a business.  Now, instead of converting to electricity, you decided to heat water...then you have a greater efficiency.

Take away the subsidies and the tax credits and you are left with even less.

Until electricity gets more expensive, which is likely with all of the self-imposed taxes, it may be more viable.

All things being equal, solar has a long way to go.

Try again.

Do a good deed and write to solaredison and to borregosolar and tell them of your conclusions.  I am sure they will like to know that their business is destined to flounder. :lol:

The Shadow knows
 

[We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money. --Ronald ReaganAl Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warmingThe welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - CamusThe person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect. --Hayek]

I'll do that if you learn some basic math.  Take away tax subsidies and you are left with an energy source that is prohibitively expensive even in sunny California.    

Take away tax subsidies and you are left with an energy source that is prohibitively expensive even in sunny California.

Of course.   That is why not for profits can't do it on their own.

Tax incentives and energy credits are the current environment should not be ignored and calculation have to be done with them in mind. The businesses including those now looking at Ohio with SB 221 in mind are doing just that.

From: http://www.sunedison.com/government-overview.php

This includes the upfront capital and installation costs, enabling your institution to realize the Federal and State tax benefits you would otherwise be unable to receive.

Actually, since we appear to agree, this thread can be cut.


The Shadow knows  :ph34r: