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Topic: Nationalized Health Care and You: Horror Stories  (Read 3493 times)
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« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2009, 10:11:39 AM »
Vocal Observer Offline
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Baron Hill (IN-09): This Is My Town Hall Meeting. I Set the Rules.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/HtmgQ2W3lhM&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/HtmgQ2W3lhM&rel=0</a>
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The Principle of Subsidiarity
Repeal the 17th Amendment

"peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." - Th. Jefferson

Oh yea... Run Paul Run!
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2009, 06:36:03 PM »
Ideological Sceptic Offline
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You assume that if doing x does not violate the constitution the government can, in reality, do it.

Raising the income tax rate to 100% does not violate the constitution therefore it can be done.

How about, moving the entire population of the U.S. to Mars by Labor day does not violate the constitution therefore it can be done.

Or how about, giving every American a flu shot for H1N1 flu by labor dau would not violate the constitution therefore it can be done. (There isn't nearly enough H1N1 vaccine for everyone and it won't be available until mid-Oct.)

Just because the constitution allows x does not mean it can be done in reality.



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Critically and Intelligently Engage All Ideas

Ignoring ideas is Never an Option

« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2009, 07:36:57 PM »
Ideological Sceptic Offline
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Quote from: Ideological Sceptic link=topic=4766.msg126062#msg126062
date=1252103763

I suppose "you can" simply ignore the distinction between different types of modals and claim that if the constitution does not prohibit an action we can do it.

The constitution does not prohibit time travel, therefore we can actually do it.
The constitution does not prohibit living 10,000 years, therefore we can actually do it.
The constitution does not prohibit levitation, therefore we can actually do it.
The constitution does not prohibit raising the tax rate to 100%, therefore we can actually do it.

I tend to think that the distinction between what the constitution allows and what we can actually do is a sound one.

I suggest you rethink your position.











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Critically and Intelligently Engage All Ideas

Ignoring ideas is Never an Option

« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2009, 08:30:49 PM »
Ideological Sceptic Offline
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So, Who is the liar?

Section 246 of HR 3200 on page 143 reads as follows:
143
•HR 3200 IH
1 by the Commissioner, the Commissioner may impose
2 an additional penalty.
3 SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED
4 ALIENS.
5 Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments
6 for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are
7 not lawfully present in the United States.

http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf

Of course on only CNBC has pointed this out. The other networks, as usual, are more interested in showing the fireworks than telling the truth and telling Americans who is lying and who isn't.

The Republicans can be glad -- their lies are effective.




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Critically and Intelligently Engage All Ideas

Ignoring ideas is Never an Option

« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2009, 06:33:15 PM »
Peter Offline
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So, Who is the liar?

Section 246 of HR 3200 on page 143 reads as follows:
143
•HR 3200 IH
1 by the Commissioner, the Commissioner may impose
2 an additional penalty.
3 SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED
4 ALIENS.
5 Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments
6 for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are
7 not lawfully present in the United States.

Section 246 is a very small and limited section of the overall bill, which contains far more moving parts than just affordability credits.

The Congressional Research Service (the legislative branch’s research arm) looked deep into HR 3200 back in August. It concluded that the bill's individual mandate to have health insurance (with tax penalties for non-compliance) would apply to legal residents and illegal aliens alike.

Once again, common sense is befuddled by a storm of legalese.

When the legislation's "Health Insurance Exchange" offering private and government-run plans would begin operation in 2013, CRS concluded that there would be no restrictions on illegal aliens buying government-offered insurance: "HR 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens participating in the Exchange -- whether the noncitizens are legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently."

If Democrats wanted to eliminate allegations such as Joe Wilson’s, they could simply rewrite HR 3200 to say: No illegal immigrant can shop at the Health Insurance Exchange.

Rep. Dean Heller from Nevada offered exactly that amendment during a House Ways and Means committee vote in July. It said that to "utilize the public health insurance option, an individual must have had his or her eligibility determined and approved" through two existing verification programs already used by the federal government. One is called SAVE, and checks immigration status, and the other is called IEVS, which is used in conjunction with Social Security.

In a party line vote, Democrats rejected Heller’s amendment.

Once again, the people are being hoodwinked by the the dem's subtle and dirty tactics.
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It's the spending, stupid!
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2009, 05:18:12 PM »
Ideological Sceptic Offline
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Peter:

Section 246 is a very small and limited section of the overall bill, which contains far more moving parts than just affordability credits.

You must be kidding.

A bill is passed that says payments to illegal immigrants will not be allowed.

This isn't sufficient for you?

You want an additional requirement that no illegal immigrant will be allowed to shop for health insurance at the health insurance exchange?

What a subtle and dirty tactic if the additional clause isn't included.

I think you are suffering from acute exaggeration syndrome.


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Critically and Intelligently Engage All Ideas

Ignoring ideas is Never an Option

« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2009, 05:58:54 AM »
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What the Doctors Think   [Larry Kudlow]

Will Americans soon be too sick to work, produce, invest, and generate new prosperity? That’s one conclusion you can draw from a new series by Investor’s Business Daily, which reveals that doctors are overwhelmingly opposed to a government takeover of health care (including the Baucus plan). Just as important, IBD reports that any government-based health-care overhaul will exacerbate the growing shortage of doctors in this country.

IBD/TIPP found that 71 percent of physicians believe that government cannot cover 47 million more people without significant rationing of health care. And nearly half of the doctors polled say they would retire early if Congress passes the proposed overhaul.

IBD/TIPP surveyed nearly 1,400 physicians for its series. In written responses, doctors have pointed to lower pay, increased government mandates, and less freedom to practice as reasons for the physician shortage. In particular, Medicare and Medicaid, which essentially are running half of our health-care system, continue to pay below-market reimbursement rates that are putting doctors out of business.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NTE4MDBlMWE1NGQyNzM1NDMxN2Y1YjkxZjYyYjYyY2I=
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We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money.  --Ronald Reagan

Al Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warming

The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - Camus

The person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect.  --Hayek
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2009, 08:51:54 AM »
Ideological Sceptic Offline
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What Doctors Think
Part II

Poll: Majority Of Doctors Support Public Option
Article Date: 16 Sep 2009


"New England Journal of Medicine poll doctors support public option"

A new nationwide poll found that a large majority of doctors support a public option.

Source: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/164083.php

The complete NEJM article: http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1785&query=home




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Critically and Intelligently Engage All Ideas

Ignoring ideas is Never an Option

« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2009, 09:01:39 AM »
Ideological Sceptic Offline
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Stop and Think

According to TonyBlair's post: "IBD/TIPP found that 71 percent of physicians believe that government cannot cover 47 million more people without significant rationing of health care."

Assumption: Health care rationing bad.
Assumption: Millions of people do not get health care today.
Assumption: There are are not have enough doctors and health facilities to serve everyone.
Therefore, if we reject health care reform we won't have rationing of health care.

The conclusion is blatantly false.


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Critically and Intelligently Engage All Ideas

Ignoring ideas is Never an Option

« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2009, 09:06:05 PM »
TonyBlair Offline
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A registered Democrat starts to see the light....

Health Reform Is Just Subterfuge; Dream Is Democratic Dictatorship

By JOHN F. GASKI | Posted Tuesday, September 22, 2009 4:20 PM PT

By now the realization should be taking hold that the Democrats' health care plan has been exposed as a hoax. And it was the Democrats themselves who discredited and exposed it, but in a very ironic way. Of course, you won't hear this bombshell news reported by Democrat partisans Katie Couric, Charles Gibson and Brian Williams.

 As for the substance, remember the Democrats' original rationale for their national health care takeover scheme? They wanted all uninsured Americans to be covered, right? Remember?

 But now they concede that their mega-upheaval of a plan would still leave about 15 million without medical insurance. Yet they still advocate the plan! Why?

First, a digression: Don't believe that "47 million uninsured" number. That canard is beyond a hoax. It is a fraud and a lie.

For example, it includes at least 10 million illegal aliens (yes, that is the right term for those who enter our country by violating American law) and an additional five million or so legal foreign residents. Those categories are not "uninsured Americans" because they are not Americans.

The notorious 47 million also includes millions of wealthy people who do not purchase medical insurance — rendering themselves self-insured, not uninsured.

The biggest deceptions of all may be counting a large cohort of the young and vigorous who make the rational cost/benefit decision not to buy medical insurance yet, and several million others who qualify for free insurance and just don't bother to sign up!

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=338508363226357
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We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money.  --Ronald Reagan

Al Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warming

The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - Camus

The person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect.  --Hayek
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2009, 08:13:06 AM »
Ideological Sceptic Offline
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Republicans support Public Option

for House insurance but not health insurance.

Curious. Public Option for Property not People:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-cay-johnston/gop-favors-public-option_b_296703.html

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Critically and Intelligently Engage All Ideas

Ignoring ideas is Never an Option

« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2009, 09:24:12 AM »
TonyBlair Offline
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Zee information must not get out! 


NHS is paying millions to gag whistleblowers

Patients' lives put at risk by tactics used against those who highlight safety fears

By Nina Lakhani

NHS whistleblowers are routinely gagged in order to cover up dangerous and even dishonest practices that could attract bad publicity and damage a hospital's reputation.

Some local NHS bodies are spending millions of taxpayers' money to pay off and silence whistleblowers with "super gags" to stop them going public with patient safety incidents. Experts warn that patients' lives are being endangered by the use of intimidatory tactics to force out whistleblowers and deter other professionals from coming forward.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/nhs-is-paying-millions-to-gag-whistleblowers-1812914.html
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We could say [Democrats] spend money like drunken sailors, but that would be unfair to drunken sailors. It would be unfair, because the sailors are spending their own money.  --Ronald Reagan

Al Gore didn't invent the internet, he invented global warming

The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants - Camus

The person who advocates government planning of the economy always assumes that it is his plan that will be put into effect.  --Hayek
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2009, 08:53:05 PM »
Vocal Observer Offline
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No Right to Health Care
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/JAo-4ZaXmyE&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/JAo-4ZaXmyE&rel=0</a>
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The Principle of Subsidiarity
Repeal the 17th Amendment

"peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." - Th. Jefferson

Oh yea... Run Paul Run!
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2009, 06:27:08 PM »
Vocal Observer Offline
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Dems in Congress support corporatism.  The real solution is to get rid of health insurance altogether.

Kucinich: Health reform legislation ‘a bailout for insurance companies’
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/yony3z8K51Q&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/yony3z8K51Q&rel=0</a>
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The Principle of Subsidiarity
Repeal the 17th Amendment

"peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." - Th. Jefferson

Oh yea... Run Paul Run!
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2009, 04:12:03 PM »
Vocal Observer Offline
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See link for list of all 111

111 New Federal Bureaucracies Created in Democrats’ Health Care Bill
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/56532
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The Principle of Subsidiarity
Repeal the 17th Amendment

"peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." - Th. Jefferson

Oh yea... Run Paul Run!
 
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