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Topic: Voluntary Taxation?  (Read 997 times)
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« on: May 28, 2009, 09:05:41 AM »
Vocal Observer Offline
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Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid on why we have a voluntary tax system Huh

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/R7mRSI8yWwg&rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/R7mRSI8yWwg&rel=0</a>
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The Principle of Subsidiarity
Repeal the 17th Amendment

"peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." - Th. Jefferson

Oh yea... Run Paul Run!
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2009, 09:48:47 AM »
Vocal Observer Offline
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On the reverse side, our current tax system is modern day serfdom.  We work FOR the state almost half of the year.  That is not a just society.  I wonder if Congress has ever heard of Subsidiarity.
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The Principle of Subsidiarity
Repeal the 17th Amendment

"peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." - Th. Jefferson

Oh yea... Run Paul Run!
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2009, 10:20:22 AM »
theshadow Offline
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VO

"We work FOR the state almost half of the year"


Wrong!! you work for the state to pay for those things that you and/or your fellow citizens ask the state to do for you.  Two wars, national defense, homeland security (such as it is), food safety, drug safety, clean air and water, roads, incarceration of felons, immigration control (such as it is) etc. etc.  In this interconnected world there are many things you could not do for yourself.


 Now, you as an individual may feel that you do not need or want all of those things but you are not an "island onto yourself" but consider yourself lucky to live under a government where corruption is minimal (when compared to other places) and where for the most part you get what you pay for.

The Shadow has lived elsewhere
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« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2009, 11:42:08 AM »
Vocal Observer Offline
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Of course, the federal government has a role, but it has gone beyond what it should be doing.  Much of its involvement could be handled at a lower level.  You forget that we have a Constitution that explicitly states what the Federal Government can do REGARDLESS of what you or someone else may want it to do.

By how much would the tax burden be reduced if we removed expenditures of:

Interest on Debt
Social Security Administration
Health and Human Services
Dept. of Agriculture
Department of Labor
Department of Education
Housing and Urban Development
Department of Energy
Department of Homeland Security
International Assistance Programs
Department of Interior
Department of Commerce
National Science Foundation

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The Principle of Subsidiarity
Repeal the 17th Amendment

"peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." - Th. Jefferson

Oh yea... Run Paul Run!
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2009, 12:23:11 PM »
theshadow Offline
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VO


"By how much would the tax burden be reduced if we removed expenditures of"

These are a few of the functions pray tell which you would do without.

Interest on Debt  Can't do unless you are ready to default  thus, unrealistic
Social Security Administration  Currently pays for itself and more. Eliminate safety net.  Who would support parents, grandparents, survivors
Health and Human Services  Runs NIH (supports research) CDC takes care of infectious diseases outbreaks food safety
Dept. of Agriculture Food safety,  research on crops, farm subsidies
Department of Labor OSHA safety in the workplace.  Mine safety. Labor statistics.  Training   
Department of Education  Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Education
Housing and Urban Development Deals with housing for the poor, elderly disabled.  Renewal of cities
Department of Energy Nuclear research, research in alternate energy sources.
Department of Homeland Security  Of course you are kidding
International Assistance Programs Military assistance to friends, food assistance (both give work internally)
Department of Interior National Parks, Land managment
Department of Commerce Foreign trade
National Science Foundation  Scientific research

Now these are only those that come to mind immediately.

Three make up the greatest part of the budget.  Defense, HHSn and the debt.  Everything else probably comes up to what DOD spends. 

So the tax saving would be little.  SS helps pay for other things.

The Shadow
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« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2009, 01:02:12 PM »
Vocal Observer Offline
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Interest on Debt  Can't do unless you are ready to default  thus, unrealistic
I suggest we live within our means and pay off our debt

Social Security Administration  Currently pays for itself and more. Eliminate safety net.  Who would support parents, grandparents, survivors
The overspending and taxation of government reduces savings and investment.  Children and communities (CHARITY, NOT GOVT) have an obligation to take care of the elderly in society

Health and Human Services  Runs NIH (supports research) CDC takes care of infectious diseases outbreaks food safety
Why can't this be done in the private sector?  The research and medicine is privately driven.  The CDC is simply another bureaucratic inefficiency

Dept. of Agriculture Food safety,  research on crops, farm subsidies
You should watch Food, Inc. and tell me what you think of the USDA.  Research is done on the private side and the subsidies only support Big AG and drive small farmers our of business here and abroad by undercutting costs

Department of Labor OSHA safety in the workplace.  Mine safety. Labor statistics.  Training   .
Why does the Federal government need to do this?  Can't this be handled by the states, if necessary?
 
Department of Education  Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Education
What did you want me to see, how large and unconstitutional it is? Did you bother to read the article on Subsidiarity?

Housing and Urban Development Deals with housing for the poor, elderly disabled.  Renewal of citiesAgain, states can handle this

Department of Energy Nuclear research, research in alternate energy sources.
This is done in the private sector.  What happened when Bush pushed Ethanol, corn prices were inflated.  Government politicizes the issue.

Department of Homeland Security  Of course you are kidding
We had plenty of agencies within DOD and State to handle this prior to 2001.  As admitted, bureaucracy and poor communication were the problems.  Aside from hassles at the airport and billions of dollars being wasted, what changed between 9/11/2001 and 12/25/2009?  We like to think that efforts were stopped, but there is no proof.  Are you willing to believe everything the government tells you?

International Assistance Programs Military assistance to friends, food assistance (both give work internally)CHARITY NOT GOVERNMENT

Department of Interior National Parks, Land managment
Feds grabbing land from states

Department of Commerce Foreign trade
I agree, but the seem to use the Commerce Clause to grab whatever power they want.  I wouldn't bothered if they stuck to what you mention

National Science Foundation  Scientific research
PRIVATE SECTOR.  RESEARCH IS NOT A PUBLIC GOOD

Three make up the greatest part of the budget.  Defense, HHSn and the debt.  Everything else probably comes up to what DOD spends. 

So the tax saving would be little.
NEGATIVE.  That would be a huge savings.  If the government didn't overspend and debt payments were a non issue, there's another chunk.

Get rid of the welfare state, follow subsidiarity.  Allow communities to take care of their own as they know best
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The Principle of Subsidiarity
Repeal the 17th Amendment

"peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." - Th. Jefferson

Oh yea... Run Paul Run!
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2009, 10:30:20 PM »
theshadow Offline
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VO

It is apparent that you speak from ideology, without knowledge in some area and not accepting that the degree of interconnection within the country and throughout the world makes policies you espouse unrealistic.  Like it or not there are many things where the nation is the community.

Now to the details.  They are going to be long because things are not as simple as some would make them.

Interest on Debt  Can't do unless you are ready to default  thus, unrealistic
I suggest we live within our means and pay off our debt

Do not disagree.. Surplus with Clinton...deficits with Bush.  Therefore Bush's fault  Grin  Deficit not due to SS which takes in more than it pays out.

Social Security Administration  Currently pays for itself and more. Eliminate safety net.  Who would support parents, grandparents, survivors
The overspending and taxation of government reduces savings and investment.  Children and communities (CHARITY, NOT GOVT) have an obligation to take care of the elderly in society. 

Uniformity in care essential otherwise people will migrate to communities with better help.  Used to happen in the 50's-60's.  Children in communities such as SE Ohio can't support parents granparents as well as children in Central Ohio.

Health and Human Services  Runs NIH (supports research) CDC takes care of infectious diseases outbreaks food safety
Why can't this be done in the private sector?  The research and medicine is privately driven.  The CDC is simply another bureaucratic inefficiency

The private sector does not do basic research.  It takes what is discovered by scientists with NIH grants and applies it.  NIH grants also trains the scientists that will eventually work both in instituions and in the private sector.  NIH labs work on low incidence diseases where there is not enough "profit" to be made.  CDC is one of the best investments.  It is the sentinel for potentially imported disease,(like the current importation of tuberculosis extra resistant to antibiotics. It also helps trace outbreaks like the lettuce a couple of years ago.  As long as products and people move nationally and internationally this function is critical for safety.

Dept. of Agriculture Food safety,  research on crops, farm subsidies
You should watch Food, Inc. and tell me what you think of the USDA.  Research is done on the private side and the subsidies only support Big AG and drive small farmers our of business here and abroad by undercutting costs

I think USDA is underfunded for what it is supposed to do to safeguard the food supply.  (today's example) http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=9434195>
Again it supports research (plant diseases) that private sector does not do becausethere is no immediate payoff.  As far as subsidies are concerned it is not USDA but Congress that mandates that.


Department of Labor OSHA safety in the workplace.  Mine safety. Labor statistics.  Training   .
Why does the Federal government need to do this?  Can't this be handled by the states, if necessary?

Uniformity essential not only for the safety of the workers but to insure that regulations are uniform so that competitive advantages do not come at the expense of the safety or workers.
 


Department of Education  Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Education
What did you want me to see, how large and unconstitutional it is? Did you bother to read the article on Subsidiarity?

Why is the department unconstitutional?  Some of its actions may be considered by some to be unconstitutional and those people are free to challenge them in court.  But here again we are faced with a world view.  The country can't rely on individual communities doing what is good for the country.  An uneducated (in modern terms) person is a detriment to the country.  The competition with the rest of the world has to be nationalized and this means the federal government using carrots and sticks to bring about a level of competitiveness that communities by themselves may not be able to achieve.  It is better to educate a child from SE Ohio so that when he/she comes here he/she does not become a local problem.

Housing and Urban Development Deals with housing for the poor, elderly disabled.  Renewal of cities
Again, states can handle this.

Not all states are in equal position to do so, you will have migration to "better" states.  WV, Ky and TN sent many folks to Ohio during the 50s/60s

Department of Energy Nuclear research, research in alternate energy sources.
This is done in the private sector.  What happened when Bush pushed Ethanol, corn prices were inflated.  Government politicizes the issue.

DOE operates Livermore Labs where atomic research is done.  Private sector is liscenced to run labs but would not invest in infrastructure etc.  DOE, DOA both sponsored the basic research on ethanol.  Industry used the research.

Department of Homeland Security  Of course you are kidding
We had plenty of agencies within DOD and State to handle this prior to 2001.  As admitted, bureaucracy and poor communication were the problems.  Aside from hassles at the airport and billions of dollars being wasted, what changed between 9/11/2001 and 12/25/2009?  We like to think that efforts were stopped, but there is no proof.  Are you willing to believe everything the government tells you?

Hard to prove/disprove a negative. 

International Assistance Programs Military assistance to friends, food assistance (both give work internally)CHARITY NOT GOVERNMENT

Diplomacy and defense actually gives work at home and money to farmers

Department of Interior National Parks, Land managment
Feds grabbing land from states

Lets get rid of parks.. Most land administered by Fed when states territories.  Alaska purchased with Fed money not state money.  Thus theoretically you could say that Alaska's oil belong to all of us and we are also entitled to the royalties.  Don't hold your breath.
   Grin

Department of Commerce Foreign trade
I agree, but the seem to use the Commerce Clause to grab whatever power they want.  I wouldn't bothered if they stuck to what you mention

Congress and not the department decides on what the department does. 

National Science Foundation  Scientific research
PRIVATE SECTOR.  RESEARCH IS NOT A PUBLIC GOOD

See NIH.  NSF funds basic research in areas other than that with medical implications.

Three make up the greatest part of the budget.  Defense, HHSn and the debt.  Everything else probably comes up to what DOD spends.

So the tax saving would be little.
NEGATIVE.  That would be a huge savings.  If the government didn't overspend and debt payments were a non issue, there's another chunk.

Get rid of the welfare state, follow subsidiarity.  Allow communities to take care of their own as they know best. 

And if the best is nothing?

Suggest you read Centesiimus annus iitself instead of getting it selectively filtered.   Section 19 is worth reading

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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2010, 05:52:44 PM »
theshadow Offline
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VO

Way back in Dec. 29-20) you said "The CDC is simply another bureaucratic inefficiency" 

The following link is to give you an idea of what it does and why you should be happy it is there.  This is only one example.

http://www.cdc.gov/salmonella/montevideo/index.html

The shadow is happy to share


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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2010, 06:02:40 PM »
Vocal Observer Offline
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This investigation aside (I haven't read it), do you not think that the government has any predisposition when funding studies?
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The Principle of Subsidiarity
Repeal the 17th Amendment

"peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." - Th. Jefferson

Oh yea... Run Paul Run!
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2010, 10:12:19 AM »
theshadow Offline
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Actually, except for "earmarks" (and we know what those are) studies are funded after peer review and prioritizing by non-governmental  panels usually consisting of recognized individuals in the different fields.  if there is (and there often is) a bias in what fields are investigated it is usually based on the perceived  mission priorities.  As an example the wars on cancer or AIDS.  In general funding goes where there is a promise of early progress on the basis of current understanding.  The "government" has little control over that.  The process is as free of political influence as any human endeavor can be that is to say there is some political influence.

But going back to CDC.  That agency is the coordinating agency for all 50 states.  It is the only agency capable of tracing nation/world wide outbreaks so that states can take the necessary steps within each jurisdiction
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