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Topic: Animal Cruelty?  (Read 760 times)
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« on: December 07, 2009, 04:32:25 PM »
Vocal Observer Offline
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There's an e-mail going around trying to rile up support for H.B. 70
http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/bills.cfm?ID=128_HB_70

The committee vote on the issue went along party lines (D for, R against).  On the surface, I wondered why anyone would be against tougher crime for those who abuse animals, but then I saw the following article.

Ohio House approves tougher penalty for cockfighting
http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/ohiopolitics/entries/2009/12/01/ohio_house_approves_tougher_pe.html?cxtype=feedbot

The question of "Animal Cruelty" does blur the lines a bit.  On one hand, "Who would abuse an animal?"  On the other, animals are property; thus, who's to say what you do with your property if it doesn't affect someone else?  How do you legislate on "animal cruelty" without infringing upon property rights?
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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2009, 09:41:29 PM »
theshadow Offline
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We should import bullfighting!!!

The Shadow
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2009, 03:21:11 PM »
Peter Offline
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We should import bullfighting!!!

Yes, because that's exactly what we're talk about.
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2009, 07:23:38 PM »
Ideological Sceptic Offline
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On the other, animals are property; thus, who's to say what you do with your property if it doesn't affect someone else?  How do you legislate on "animal cruelty" without infringing upon property rights?

Have you ever examined the arguments for animal rights?


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« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2009, 02:56:55 PM »
Peter Offline
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On the other, animals are property; thus, who's to say what you do with your property if it doesn't affect someone else?  How do you legislate on "animal cruelty" without infringing upon property rights?

Have you ever examined the arguments for animal rights?

Yes, and some would say I'm a leading expert on such matters, inasmuch as I've owned several of them, and never once taught them to steal or otherwise break the law, despite the fact that animals, generally speaking, don't give much attention to the law.

If we had a solid respect for a moral code in this country, this debate wouldn't exist, but as it is, we don't, so those like you tell us that it must be the government who should legislate our morality for us, even though you can't legislate morality, as I'm often told by those of your ilk.

Quite a predicament that the moral relativists have foisted upon us, no? Loss of shame, loss of ability to reason, loss of meaning. And with that, so very many problems.

So there's the attempt to replace shame and reason with jail or fines... that's awesome, and not at all dangerous, because it puts the government in charge of what's considered moral, and as we all know, the government is always good, all the time, of course.
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« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2009, 08:39:25 PM »
Ideological Sceptic Offline
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Peter:

If we had a solid respect for a moral code in this country, this debate wouldn't exist, but as it is, we don't, so those like you tell us that it must be the government who should legislate our morality for us, even though you can't legislate morality, as I'm often told by those of your ilk.

“…This debate wouldn’t exist…”

REPLY:
Are you suggesting that respect or “solid respect” for a moral code is incompatible with moral debate? Leibniz held that Human beings were rational beings capable of moral wisdom--perfect and infallible knowledge of morality.

Moral knowledge is the same as knowledge of mathematics . No one debates ‘1+1 = 2’. Morality could be reduced to a branch of calculation where no one debates moral issues we simply calculate.

Peter:
“…so those like you tell us that it must be the government who should legislate our morality for us, even though you can't legislate morality, as I'm often told by those of your ilk.”

REPLY:
I will admit there are probably lots of people like me. Some of them believe morality should be legislated. Others deny it. Some believe it can in some instances and not in others.

I fall into the latter group. I believe that we should, in some instances, legislate morality: we should have laws against murder, theft, and perjury. We can legislate in these instances and we should.

In other instances we shouldn’t. If I lie to my kids about the existence of Santa Claus. My neighbor never returned a tool I loaned him. He stole it from me. I don’t believe there should be a law against this. He lied to me when he said he would return it. I don’t think this sort of lie should be governed by law.

I guess I am a sort of relativist then. This is a modest sort of relativism though far removed from the Ethics 101 description of ethical relativism.

Peter:

Quite a predicament that the moral relativists have foisted upon us, no? Loss of shame, loss of ability to reason, loss of meaning. And with that, so very many problems.

REPLY: I think you’re confusing moral relativism with moral noncognitivism.
Lots of conservatives and liberals have been one or the other. I don’t see this as a criticism of either.

Peter:
“So there's the attempt to replace shame and reason with jail or fines... that's awesome, and not at all dangerous, because it puts the government in charge of what's considered moral, and as we all know, the government is always good, all the time, of course.”

REPLY: I have no idea where you got the impression that I am talking about jails or fines. Please provide a quote or some references. You seem to be confusing me with someone else.

I certainly reject the notion that the government should be in charge of determining what is moral.

I take the ability to reason very seriously. Much of the rhetoric on this board reflects the this loss of the ability to reason.

Fundamental to reasoning is the ability to examine the arguments of your opponents carefully, honestly, and systematically.

So, I will ask you to

1) lay out what you consider to be the strongest argument of those who believe that non-human animals have rights

2) provide a reference to the source of this argument.

3) describe the fallacy or fallacies in the argument.






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Critically and Intelligently Engage All Ideas

Ignoring ideas is Never an Option

 
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